The Riverman: Ted Bundy and I Hunt for the Green River Killer (71 page)

Moving his head back slightly, like I might come through the glass at him, he said, “That’s right.”

“Get it over with and you know when you got it. That’s what they understand,” I said.

“That’s the way it is,” Ted answered.

“The manner in which these interviews are organized, it’s all cop-oriented.” I was scolding Ted for not preparing himself better.

“Well, that’s too bad,” Ted said, bowing his head.

“One detective’s turn, somebody else’s turn, and then your time’s up. Maybe you didn’t organize this properly,” I said, showing Ted that his strategy wasn’t working as he’d hoped.

“Good point,” Ted said.

I really pushed Ted to the limits by suggesting that he and his advisors planned poorly because they invited Idaho authorities, who had no idea to which murders Ted was referring. So I asked, “What are you going to tell the guy from Idaho that comes in? He wasn’t even aware that there was a murder there.”

Stuttering, Ted said, “Yeah. I don’t think—do we have that set up yet?”

I explained, “When I called him first to tell him to come, I said, you know this might be a surprise to you, but he wants you down there. The guy from Idaho was totally unaware. You’re going to have to tell him. He doesn’t have a clue what you’re talking about.”

Ted said, “Yeah. All right, we’ve got twenty minutes. We’ve accomplished something here, but I don’t feel like we’ve really joined heads on this thing. I don’t know what you want to do. I
know you’ve been on this case—so to speak, the Bundy case—for a long time. I know that you must have some deep-seated feelings about it. I don’t want to make too many assumptions, but here’s what it comes down to me. I want the truth, the truth that’s going to be helpful to you, but the broader truth that has a wider application. That’s my bottom line. There’s just no way it can be done in these circumstances with this amount of time, and that’s the way it is. I’m not holding you hostage. If you don’t want to do anything with it, you’re free to walk away. If you can put your heads together with these other law enforcement people and think of any way, I’m not asking for clemency, I’m not asking to get off. I’m not asking for sympathy, but I … I draw the line. We need a period of time, sixty, ninety days, a few months, systematically going over with everybody, bottom to top, everything I can think of. Get it all down. You can use it as you see fit. But—that’s how it is. Now, if you can see a way … I know you’re limited in what you can do. You’ve got your job and your political considerations and all that. Your boss apparently has taken a position against this, but all I can tell you is when you go out and talk to those other people, you can tell them this. Yes, I’m only going to give you part of it. I’ll give you something substantial, right now, to show you that my head is in the right place. I will not put myself in a position of giving it all away and not getting the kind of result that I think is best for my people, and I think for society in general. But I don’t want to sound like I’m too altruistic here—that is a consideration—but I am concerned about my own people. Bob, they’re going to get me sooner or later. Ahhh, you don’t need to worry about that, but you’ve been after this for fifteen years. A couple months is not going to make any difference. That’s what I have to say,” Ted said, his voice gradually becoming quieter and softer. His eyes teared up, and he began to weep. Comparing notes later with two detectives, I found out that this little episode was a staged event. He did the same thing to foster sympathy and as a stall tactic with the other detectives.

After waiting a few seconds for Ted to recover from his apparent sobbing spell, I lied. “I think essentially you’re right. As a person, okay, knowing what I know today, I’d like to keep you alive forever so we could really go over the whole thing together. That’s what I’d like to do as a person inside me.”

“Yeah,” Ted said, encouraged.

“The reality is that I’m a cop, a professional. I don’t get upset because somebody didn’t get the death penalty and should have,” I obligingly told Ted.

“Yup,” he said nervously.

I lectured him. “I want to just understand and learn about the process of investigation. We talked about this before. The fact that you’re dead or alive makes no difference. If I got hung up on the fact that you were dead or alive, I may as well just go up in the mountains and just kill myself.”

Struggling for the right thing to say, Ted said, “Okay, well, I’m not saying necessarily that you are, but you have got some interest in justice, I suppose, whatever your definition of that is. All I’m saying is if there is any worry on anybody’s part, what I would like to help people understand is, if it’s justice, whatever that means, they can get a lot more justice in a couple months than they can right now. And they can help a lot more people in a couple months than they’re going to help right now. And they’re not going to be doing a thing for me other than giving me a chance to tell the story. I’m repeating myself, but I’ve no one but myself to blame. I realize that.”

“I was about ready to bring that up,” I said, rubbing it in that he had run the show so far.

Unlike in the
Confessions of Job,
Bundy declared, “And I take full responsibility for it. I’ve procrastinated, I’ve waited too long, and I don’t want to go into a long rationale or story about, you know, all the things that put me in a position of waiting this long. Believe me, on many occasions prior to today, I had seriously asked for people who represent me to take this approach, long before this warrant was signed, and they steadfastly opposed it and all but demanded that we stick with the conventional legal approach. And perhaps last February when I virtually begged them to go this way, maybe we wouldn’t be in the position—we wouldn’t be in the position we are today, I’m pretty sure. Yeah, I realize, Bob, I am whistling against the wind right now; the politics are pretty heavy-duty out there. And folks have made up their minds, the people in power, a lot of them. And I don’t know if this is going to work. And if it doesn’t, it’s going to be too bad. Everybody loses.”

Somewhat stunned, I just realized why, in February 1988, Bundy had talked to me about how to interview a serial killer. What I hadn’t discerned then was that he really wanted to confess at that
time. I felt he was hinky about something, but I didn’t know what it was. I kept the conversation going by saying, “You are talking about a system oriented toward the chance to kill Ted Bundy. What sound politician wouldn’t want the ax to fall right now? The governor doesn’t care anything about you. All he’s talking about is law and order. Here’s this famous murderer that he has a chance to say, ‘No, we’re not going to support.’ And, as a police investigator, I have to assume that you’re going to die Tuesday.”

Hanging his head in shame, Ted uttered quietly, “I know.”

“I got to think about what you can give law enforcement between now and Tuesday,” I reminded him.

Ted struggled to move his lips, saying very quietly, “Uh huh.”

At this point, I decided to feed him a dose of the truth to reestablish my credibility. I said, “And if it’s pieces, it’s pieces—or nothing. I don’t know which. But I’m not going to give you any advice. I’m sure not going to tell everybody you’re a liar, that’s for sure. And if they ask me, I’m just going to tell them the truth, that you did tell me some things and that I thought you were cooperating. Time is a problem.”

Looking like a whipped puppy, Bundy repeated himself, saying, “I know.”

Leaving no other route for him to pursue, I told him, “And there’s no way I can leave here today, gather up these people, and come up with some plan of action about the interview with Ted Bundy. All I could ever expect when I heard I had two and a half hours … you know, out of fifteen years, two and a half hours is nothing.”

“Sure,” said Ted, realizing for the first time that he had made a huge mistake. He needed more time with me first to set up a strategy to establish his credibility, but it was too late.

Feeling that the interview was about to end, I said, “So one of the things that I wanted to do is at least find out the scope of your murders. You’ve helped me with that a little bit. I would like to know about the other three that we’re talking about because I really don’t have any clue about when, where, and how they occurred.”

“Let me ask you this, again. I know the position you’re in. But law enforcement in the past has been somewhat—they’ve not been shy. I remember years ago about holding conferences, getting together, and swapping ideas. The officers speculated about what is Ted Bundy really like, drawing diagrams on the wall, and coming out with statements to the press about what they think Bundy’s
about. You know, law enforcement has an interest here. Society has an interest, families have an interest, et cetera. Are the politics such that it’s just not possible for you and others in a similar position to sit down this weekend—somehow sit down this weekend together with a cross section of interested parties, and try to get everybody in the same room? You know how this stuff goes. It’s a Tower of Babel right now. Everybody talking it over, through the news media, and over the telephone. Nobody even getting together to find out, well, what do we really stand to gain, what do we lose—I mean, what’s going on here. And see if a consensus of some kind can be hammered out without anybody having to stand out there alone, without Bob Keppel risking the wrath of his boss or anybody else. Or, everybody standing together and saying, ‘You know, we’re not for Ted Bundy, the son of a bitch, you know, or whatever, but we are for finding out. We think it’s not unreasonable that this will come to pass because we have received some strong indications that he’s opened up in a way he never has before.’ Do you hear what I’m saying?” Ted pleaded in his most sincere fashion.

I muttered, “Uh huh,” knowing he wasn’t finished with his point.

“There’s going to be a lot of police. Whether I call them in here or not, most of them would be here, don’t you think? A lot of them would be here, waiting in the wings. I know they have before. If you can get everybody in a room and you say, ‘This is what I know; I mean, I’m not Ted Bundy’s advocate, I’m an advocate of Washington State’s interest. I’m an advocate of Colorado’s interest. I’m an advocate of the attorney general of Florida’s interest. And this is what we think. What’s at stake? What are we looking at? Is he trying to bullshit us? Is he, you know, trying to manipulate us? Or is he serious? Will he give us what we want? And can we justify this politically by saying we’re getting this, and we’re still going to be able to execute him anyway?’ And coming up, again, with the kind of consensus that the public and the politicians respect. Because you say, ‘Well, what do politicians have to gain?’ I mean, in this law and order atmosphere. Well, part of the calling card of today’s politicians, today’s compassionate politicians, is their deep respect for families, okay? I would sound hypocritical if I were to say anything about the families of these individuals, even all the years I haven’t said anything. But the fact of the matter is they still do count. They’re still out there. They still deserve to find their people.
They can find their people. I can tell them how to find their people, and it’s up to the politicians to give me a chance. And that’s the bottom line. And if they don’t give me the chance, which I will take advantage of if I am given it, they will be able to help those families they so righteously talk about all the time, and still get me. Well, it sounds to me like, you know, they have everything to gain and nothing to lose. Think about the predicament. Again, I know that it’s going to occur to you, and I know the accusation’s been made that I’m manipulating families, but the reality is they’re out there. They’re there. If we didn’t talk about them, they’d still be there. There are a handful, several dozen, probably, mothers, you know, you’ve seen it firsthand, and I’m sure you probably don’t like me talking about it, but I’m going to talk about it. I will tell you and your fellow law enforcement officers everything I can to locate the remains of a number of people in your state and elsewhere. And I can do that. And that can be done. There are some of these people who don’t even know that I’m involved. That is, these family members. If I’m killed, they’re doubly deprived. They don’t even get the sense of satisfaction; they executed the guy who did it to their child,” Ted said, with constant hand motions.

Ted, in a way, was preaching to the choir. But his effort to get me to hold a Ted Bundy summit was one more ploy to grandstand in his situation. Instead, he should have quietly and with humility started to tell his story. He chose instead to mess with us one more time, and I wasn’t about to participate. I responded with the idea he was still going to push his cause. “Uh huh.”

“This way they get both the knowledge, the remains of their loved ones, and that satisfaction of some justice being done,” Ted restated as though he thought all the parents and relatives had compassion for his dilemma. “That’s what it comes down to, really. I put myself in this position. Agh, but that’s where we’re at. That’s one of the places we’re at. We’re also at a juncture where you as a law enforcement officer want something. You want facts, which you’re entitled to, which you need, and I recognize that. But there’s more involved, and you know that, too. And while I don’t expect you to be a spokesman for me or for social science, let’s get down to the practicalities of what can be done. I know that you as a law enforcement person, as a human being, are interested in families. You’re interested in solving crimes, you’re interested in preventing
future crimes, and what I have to say goes to a lot of that. And I don’t think I need to tell you that. But can’t we get people in the same room and talk about the stuff, rationally, instead of taking rhetorical stands in [the] news media? They’re going to be here. Think about it.”

Ted tried to use the concerns of the family members to influence me to hold his summit conference. In his most clever psychopathic posturing, Ted attempted to convince me that he really was remorseful. It’s typical of the conniving sociopath to have the resourcefulness to use remorse as a ploy to get sympathy, a feeling contrary to a psychopath’s inner motivations, but he was still able to exploit the concept with other people. When Ted bargained for his life, he was really searching for whether he had any value.