The World Has Changed (34 page)

So, what happens? I mean, does that ever happen to you?

 

P.C.: Yes.

 

A.W.: Ah! Good. [laughter]

 

P.C.: And I just don’t worry about it.

 

A.W.: Good. [laughter and applause]

 

P.C.: One of the things that I’ve discovered, you know, as the years go on, is that there can’t be any “should”s in the whole thing. So even meditation practice can become something you feel like you should do. And then it becomes another thing that you worry about, or something like that. So I just let it ebb and flow, as it does—practicing, not practicing. And now I feel like somehow it’s always with you in some way, whether you are formally practicing or not. And my hunger for it ebbs and flows. But the hunger always comes back again. And not necessarily because things are going bad, but just, it’s a natural opening and closing, or a natural relaxation, and then getting more involved with something else. And coming back, and going back and forth.

 

A.W.: I was surprised to discover how easy it was to begin meditating many, many years ago. And what I most liked was just how familiar it is, that state, you know. And the place that I most love is when I disappear. I mean, there’s a point where you disappear. And that is so wonderful,
because I’m sure that’s how it will be after we die. You know, you’re just not here, but it’s fine.

 

P.C.: What do you mean, exactly, you “disappear”?

 

A.W.: Well, it’s just, you reach that point where it’s just like space. And you don’t feel yourself. The ego is not saying hello. And you’re not thinking about what you’re going to cook. And you’re not thinking about what you’re going to wear. And you’re not really aware of your body, really. And I like that. I like that because, as a writer, I spend a lot of time in spaces that I’ve created myself. And it’s a relief, then, to have another place that is basically empty. And so, I really appreciate that.

 

P.C.: See, I don’t think I have the same experience, somehow. I always feel very present in some kind of sense. But I have less and less sense of who I am—which is, I think, different. It sounds different.

I realize that I don’t have a strong sense of identity, as being something. And I think maybe that’s more my experience.

But, on the other hand, there’s a very strong physical sense of being here, at the same time.

 

A.W.: Yeah.

 

P.C.: But it’s probably the same ballpark, I’d say.

 

A.W.: Well, I don’t know. I mean, I live a lot of my life, especially when I’m out in nature, in a different realm, anyway. So that I feel that meditation, when I’m not in nature, is that place. And it is a place of really feeling the oneness. So that you’re not kept from it by the fact that you’re wearing a suit.

 

P.C.: Yeah.

 

A.W.: You know? I mean, you’re just in it. And that’s one of the really good things about meditation for me.

 

P.C.: And you’re saying that—you know, you asked the question about, or made the statement about, the heart closing back down again. So
you find that it sort of ebbs and flows from that to feeling . . . The heart closed down would be more like a stuck feeling, I suppose.

 

A.W.: Yeah, more like a stuck feeling. And triggered by these places in life that are bound to give you a stuck feeling.

 

P.C.: Yeah.

 

A.W.: You know. And there you are. And it’s frustrating at times, because you think to yourself, “Well, you know, I’ve worked on this. And why is it still snagging in the same spot?”

 

P.C.: Yeah. I always call that how life keeps us honest. Because it seems like . . . my experience is exactly the same, what you’re describing. And my experience of that is that it’s sort of that feeling of what I would call just openness, and you were calling emptiness. The inspiration of that, and the feeling of being part of a much bigger picture of that, and not feeling isolated. And actually, it’s a sense of profound happiness. That inspiration seems so important.

On the other hand, I’m sure it would turn into some kind of spiritual pride, or some kind of arrogance, or something. So, life just has this miraculous ability to just, like, just when you’re beginning to feel like it’s kind of going over the edge, in terms of “I’ve accomplished something,” . . . smack you right in the face with a real humdinger. You know?

And so then that humbles you. And so, I think there’s just this kind of natural balancing that happens, that keeps you human. At the same time, the sense of joy does get stronger and stronger.

 

A.W.: And, see, isn’t that a good way to see it?

 

P.C.: Yeah, I think so.

 

A.W.: It is. Because otherwise, you know, there you are, thinking that you’re just going to be smacked endlessly; and what’s the point?

 

P.C.: Yeah, that’s right. [laughter] Yeah. Because there’s something about relaxing with the moment, whether painful or pleasurable. I teach about
that a lot, because that’s so personally how I experienced it—that the smile on my face, or the sense of gladness, just to be here, is something about that openness. When it gets painful, that’s not like there’s been some big mistake or something. It just comes and goes.

 

JUDITH LIEF: Do you think that there could be a danger in, when you’re breathing in, or attracting more negativity, that you could become caught up in being a martyr, or to the usual image of the all-suffering housewife, or women, in particular, taking on these pains of their family more and more? Instead of being liberated, just becoming downtrodden? What is the flip between that and the approach of the tonglen?

 

P.C.: What do you think?

 

A.W.: Well, I think it’s just knowing that you’re not the only one suffering here and that that’s what happens on Earth. There may be other places in this galaxy where people don’t suffer at all, where beings are just fine. You know, they never get parking tickets, even. But, you know, what seems to be happening here is just really heavy-duty suffering.

 

P.C.: Yeah.

 

A.W.: And actually, I remember years ago, when I really was asking myself what’s the use of all this suffering, I was reading
The Gnostic Gospels.
And you know, the part, you know—what Jesus said that they managed to censor from the Bible. And he said something that really struck me. And he said, basically, learn how to suffer, and you will not suffer. And this dovetails with this teaching, which is a kind of acceptance of it. This is the human condition. This is what happens down here . . . or up here.

 

J.L.: So, then, Alice, as an activist, your job is to take on areas of extreme suffering and try to alleviate that to some degree, I assume. So how has it affected your approach to your activist causes?

 

A.W.: Well, I think my activism really is for myself, you know. I see things, places in the world that I really feel I should be. Because I need, for myself, to feel that I have stood there. If there is something that is
really bad, that is really evil, and it is being encountered by children, for instance, and there’s nothing else I can do but be there, then that is where I should be. And it feels a lot better than just watching it on television.

 

J.L.: You mean physically going to the actual spot?

 

A.W.: Well, physically going there, or making some expression of concern, or sending whatever I can. If it’s just, in tonglen, taking in the feeling of pain and suffering and then sending out mentally and spiritually happiness, you know, joy—tricycles—you know? Food. I like the feeling that this teaching supports of, when you have a really nice meal in a restaurant, you mentally and spiritually recognize that there are millions of people who don’t have any food. And even though they’re not . . . I mean, they might actually be right outside the restaurant these days . . . sending food, sending it or making a mental note about the disparity in the world and trying to equalize that as you’re eating your dinner. You know, saying, “I wish that everybody in Ghana had some of this soup.” Or, “I wish everybody in my hometown of Eatonton had this bread.” So that’s my response.

 

P.C.: It is true that people fear the practice for the reasons Judy is bringing up. Particularly if people have a lot of depression, it is tough going to relate with the suffering so directly, when there’s already so much depression. But I have found in teaching it that if you always start with your own experience of suffering, so that you’re feeling your depression, or whatever it is, and then, from that, you generalize to all the other people who are feeling what you do, that becomes much less overwhelming and more workable for people. Because it gives you a way to work with your pain that, instead of feeling like you’re making it more, you’re making it meaningful. So, it’s sort of different.

Whereas, if you’re only taught tonglen, that you should do tonglen for other people, then it’s really too much for a lot of people. And for most people it’s too big a leap, whereas if you start always with yourself as the reference and then extend from that, then you do find that your automatic compassion for others, without yourself involved, gets much more spontaneous and real.

In other words, you have less fear of the suffering you perceive in
the world—yours and other people’s. I think it’s a lot about overcoming fear of suffering and realizing . . . The reason I asked you about joy is because I wanted a testimonial, you see. Because my experience of working with this practice a lot is that it’s brought me a sense of, a moment-by-moment sense of, well-being. And I attribute it to the practice. So that’s encouraging, you know, then, to people who are afraid to start. To know that actually relating directly with your suffering is a doorway to well-being for yourself and others, rather than some kind of masochistic thing.

 

A.W.: And I would say that that is also true for me, in this going to stand where I feel I need to stand. That is the way that I feel that I get to that place. Once I actually went to places like Mississippi, for instance, and actually stood with the people, and realized the suffering that they were actually provoking, just by demanding their rights, once I was actually there and sharing their danger, the danger that they were in, I felt this incredible opening and an incredible feeling of finally being at home in my world—in that world, even, which was what I needed to make sure I could be. I needed to feel I could be at home there. And the only way that could happen was to actually go and to connect with the people who were there.

 

P.C.: And then I think the other extreme is when, because we have a natural fear of pain, then if somehow that becomes our primary motivation, avoidance of pain, then, as you get older and older, not only do you not go anywhere that’s scary, the world becomes scarier and scarier.

 

A.W.: Exactly. Exactly.

 

P.C.: That’s the really sad thing, is the world becomes more and more frightening. You don’t want to go out your door. And, sure, there’s a lot of danger out there. But the other approach makes you more open to the fear, or to the pain that it evokes in you. So your will gets bigger.

 

A.W.: I also really appreciate the teaching on how fruitless it really is to always blame the other person. And I feel, in my own life, you know, I can see places where I have not wanted to take my part of the blame. I have wanted to just see what the other person did wrong.

Really, it’s a losing proposition. I mean, there’s no gain to that.
Because you never learn very much about yourself. You don’t own all your parts, you know? I mean, there are places in each of us, places that are quite scary. But they have to be, as you say, made friends with. You have to really get to know them and say, “Hello there. There you are again.” And it’s just very helpful to do that.

 

P.C.: Yeah. You know, one of the things the Buddha pointed out in his early teaching was that everybody wants happiness, or freedom from pain. But the methods that one uses, habitually, human beings use, are not in sync with the wish. So the methods always end up escalating the pain. It’s this kind of trying to run away.

A good example is that someone yells at you, and then you retaliate and you yell back. And then they yell back. And then, you know, it gets worse and worse. Whereas, you think the reason to not yell back is because, you know, good people don’t yell back. But the truth is that you’re just getting smart about what’s really going to bring you some happiness.

 

A.W.: Exactly.

 

J.L.: I’m intrigued by the combination of the drive-all-blames-into-one, and situations where definitely, from a conventional viewpoint, certainly, it seems that there are bad guys and good guys. There are oppressors and oppressed, in situations where there’s a sense of [a] righteous stand against a real evil. So, how do you combine that with taking blame and also combating oppression or evil that you encounter? How does that combine?

 

A.W.: Maybe it doesn’t work there. [laughter]

 

J.L.: The statute of limitations.

 

P.C.: I think it does work there. I hope it works there.

 

A.W.: Well, why don’t you. . . . You take that one, because I . . . [laughter]

 

P.C.: I think it would have more credibility if you took it. Could you take it and express my view, then?

 

A.W.: Uh . . .

 

P.C.: Well, here would be my question, then. Does it help to have a sense of enemy in trying to end oppression?