Complete Works (173 page)

Gorgias
is so long, complex, and intellectually ambitious that it strains the confines of a simple ‘Socratic’ dialogue—a portrait of Socrates carrying out moral inquiries by his customary method of questioning others and examining their opinions. Here Socrates is on the verge of becoming the take-charge, independent philosophical theorist that he is in such dialogues as
Phaedo
and
Republic
. Like those two works,
Gorgias
concludes with an eschatological myth, affirming the soul’s survival after our death and its punishment or reward in the afterlife for a life lived unjustly or the reverse.

In
Phaedrus
Socrates makes connected but different arguments about the nature and value of rhetoric. Whereas in
Gorgias
Socrates paints an unrelievedly negative picture of the practice of rhetoric, in
Phaedrus
he finds legitimate uses for it, so long as it is kept properly subordinate to philosophy.

J.M.C.

[447]
C
ALLICLES
: This, they say, is how you’re supposed to do your part in a war or a battle, Socrates.

S
OCRATES
: Oh? Did we “arrive when the feast was over,” as the saying goes? Are we late?
¹

C
ALLICLES
: Yes, and a very urbane one it was! Gorgias gave us an admirable, varied presentation
²
just a short while ago.

S
OCRATES
: But that’s Chaerephon’s fault, Callicles. He kept us loitering about in the marketplace.

C
HAEREPHON
: That’s no problem, Socrates. I’ll make up for it, too. Gorgias [b] is a friend of mine, so he’ll give us a presentation—now, if you see fit, or else some other time, if you like.

C
ALLICLES
: What’s this, Chaerephon? Is Socrates eager to hear Gorgias?

C
HAEREPHON
: Yes. That’s the very thing we’re here for.

C
ALLICLES
: Well then, come to my house any time you like. Gorgias is staying with me and will give you a presentation there.

S
OCRATES
: Very good, Callicles. But would he be willing to have a discussion with us? I’d like to find out from the man what his craft can accomplish, [c] and what it is that he both makes claims about and teaches. As for the other thing, the presentation, let him put that on another time, as you suggest.

C
ALLICLES
: There’s nothing like asking him, Socrates. This was, in fact, one part of his presentation. Just now he invited those inside to ask him any question they liked, and he said that he’d answer them all.

S
OCRATES
: An excellent idea. Ask him, Chaerephon.

C
HAEREPHON
: Ask him what?

S
OCRATES
: What he is. [d]

C
HAEREPHON
: What do you mean?

S
OCRATES
: Well, if he were a maker of shoes, he’d answer that he was a cobbler, wouldn’t he? Or don’t you see what I mean?

C
HAEREPHON
: I do. I’ll ask him. Tell me, Gorgias, is Callicles right in saying that you make claims about answering any question anyone might put to you?

G
ORGIAS
: He is, Chaerephon. In fact I just now made that very claim,
[448]
and I say that no one has asked me anything new in many a year.

C
HAEREPHON
: In that case I’m sure you’ll answer this one quite easily, Gorgias.

G
ORGIAS
: Here’s your chance to try me, Chaerephon.

P
OLUS
: By Zeus, Chaerephon! Try me, if you like! I think Gorgias is quite worn out. He’s only just now finished a long discourse.

C
HAEREPHON
: Really, Polus? Do you think you’d give more admirable answers than Gorgias?

P
OLUS
: What does it matter, as long as they’re good enough for you? [b]

C
HAEREPHON
: Nothing at all! You answer us then, since that’s what you want.

P
OLUS
: Ask your questions.

C
HAEREPHON
: I will. Suppose that Gorgias were knowledgeable in his brother Herodicus’ craft. What would be the right name for us to call him by then? Isn’t it the same one as his brother’s?

P
OLUS
: Yes, it is.

C
HAEREPHON
: So we’d be right in saying that he’s a doctor?

P
OLUS
: Yes.

C
HAEREPHON
: And if he were experienced in the craft of Aristophon the son of Aglaophon or his brother, what would be the correct thing to call him?

P
OLUS
: A painter, obviously.

[c] C
HAEREPHON
: Now then, since he’s knowledgeable in a craft, what is it, and what would be the correct thing to call him?

P
OLUS
: Many among men are the crafts experientially devised by experience, Chaerephon. Yes, it is experience that causes our times to march along the way of craft, whereas inexperience causes them to march along the way of chance. Of these various crafts various men partake in various ways, the best men partaking of the best of them. Our Gorgias is indeed in this group; he partakes of the most admirable of the crafts.

[d] S
OCRATES
: Polus certainly appears to have prepared himself admirably for giving speeches, Gorgias. But he’s not doing what he promised Chaerephon.

G
ORGIAS
: How exactly isn’t he, Socrates?

S
OCRATES
: He hardly seems to me to be answering the question.

G
ORGIAS
: Why don’t you question him then, if you like?

S
OCRATES
: No, I won’t, not as long as you yourself may want to answer. I’d much rather ask you. It’s clear to me, especially from what he has said, that Polus has devoted himself more to what is called oratory than to discussion.

[e] P
OLUS
: Why do you say that, Socrates?

S
OCRATES
: Because, Polus, when Chaerephon asks you what craft Gorgias is knowledgeable in, you sing its praises as though someone were discrediting it. But you haven’t answered what it is.

P
OLUS
: Didn’t I answer that it was the most admirable one?

S
OCRATES
: Very much so. No one, however, asked you what Gorgias’ craft is like, but what craft it is, and what one ought to call Gorgias. So,
[449]
just as when Chaerephon put his earlier questions to you and you answered him in such an admirably brief way, tell us now in that way, too, what his craft is, and what we’re supposed to call Gorgias. Or rather, Gorgias, why don’t you tell us yourself what the craft you’re knowledgeable in is, and hence what we’re supposed to call you?

G
ORGIAS
: It’s oratory, Socrates.

S
OCRATES
: So we’re supposed to call you an orator?

G
ORGIAS
: Yes, and a good one, Socrates, if you really want to call me “what I boast myself to be,” as Homer puts it.
³

S
OCRATES
: Of course I do.

G
ORGIAS
: Call me that then.

[b] S
OCRATES
: Aren’t we to say that you’re capable of making others orators too?

G
ORGIAS
: That’s exactly the claim I make. Not only here, but elsewhere, too.

S
OCRATES
: Well now, Gorgias, would you be willing to complete the discussion in the way we’re having it right now, that of alternately asking questions and answering them, and to put aside for another time this long style of speechmaking like the one Polus began with? Please don’t go back on your promise, but be willing to give a brief answer to what you’re asked.

G
ORGIAS
: There are some answers, Socrates, that must be given by way of long speeches. Even so, I’ll try to be as brief as possible. This, too, in [c] fact, is one of my claims. There’s no one who can say the same things more briefly than I.

S
OCRATES
: That’s what we need, Gorgias! Do give me a presentation of this very thing, the short style of speech, and leave the long style for some other time.

G
ORGIAS
: Very well, I’ll do that. You’ll say you’ve never heard anyone make shorter speeches.

S
OCRATES
: Come then. You claim to be knowledgeable in the craft of oratory and to be able to make someone else an orator, too. With which [d] of the things there are is oratory concerned? Weaving, for example, is concerned with the production of clothes, isn’t it?

G
ORGIAS
: Yes.

S
OCRATES
: And so, too, music is concerned with the composition of tunes?

G
ORGIAS
: Yes.

S
OCRATES
: By Hera, Gorgias, I do like your answers. They couldn’t be shorter!

G
ORGIAS
: Yes, Socrates, I daresay I’m doing it quite nicely.

S
OCRATES
: And so you are. Come and answer me then that way about oratory, too. About which, of the things there are, is
it
knowledge?

G
ORGIAS
: About speeches. [e]

S
OCRATES
: What sort of speeches, Gorgias? Those that explain how sick people should be treated to get well?

G
ORGIAS
: No.

S
OCRATES
: So oratory isn’t concerned with all speeches.

G
ORGIAS
: Oh, no.

S
OCRATES
: But it does make people capable of speaking.

G
ORGIAS
: Yes.

S
OCRATES
: And also to be wise in what they’re speaking about?

G
ORGIAS
: Of course.

S
OCRATES
: Now does the medical craft, the one we were talking about
[450]
just now, make people able both to have wisdom about and to speak about the sick?

G
ORGIAS
: Necessarily.

S
OCRATES
: This craft, then, is evidently concerned with speeches too.

G
ORGIAS
: Yes.

S
OCRATES
: Speeches about diseases, that is?

G
ORGIAS
: Exactly.

S
OCRATES
: Isn’t physical training also concerned with speeches, speeches about good and bad physical condition?

G
ORGIAS
: Yes, it is.

S
OCRATES
: In fact, Gorgias, the same is true of the other crafts, too. Each [b] of them is concerned with those speeches that are about the object of the particular craft.

G
ORGIAS
: Apparently.

S
OCRATES
: Then why don’t you call the other crafts oratory, since you call any craft whatever that’s concerned with speeches oratory? They’re concerned with speeches, too!

G
ORGIAS
: The reason, Socrates, is that in the case of the other crafts the knowledge consists almost completely in working with your hands and activities of that sort. In the case of oratory, on the other hand, there isn’t any such manual work. Its activity and influence depend entirely on [c] speeches. That’s the reason I consider the craft of oratory to be concerned with speeches. And I say that I’m right about this.

S
OCRATES
: I’m not sure I understand what sort of craft you want to call it. I’ll soon know more clearly. Tell me this. There are crafts for us to practice, aren’t there?

G
ORGIAS
: Yes.

S
OCRATES
: Of all the crafts there are, I take it that there are those that consist for the most part of making things and that call for little speech, and some that call for none at all, ones whose task could be done even silently. Take painting, for instance, or sculpture, or many others. When [d] you say that oratory has nothing to do with other crafts, it’s crafts of this sort I think you’re referring to. Or aren’t you?

G
ORGIAS
: Yes, Socrates. You take my meaning very well.

S
OCRATES
: And then there are other crafts, the ones that perform their whole task by means of speeches and that call for practically no physical work besides, or very little of it. Take arithmetic or computation or geometry, even checkers and many other crafts. Some of these involve speeches to just about the same degree as they do activity, while many involve speeches more. All their activity and influence depend entirely on speeches. [e] I think you mean that oratory is a craft of this sort.

G
ORGIAS
: True.

S
OCRATES
: But you certainly don’t want to call any of
these
crafts oratory, do you, even though, as you phrase it, oratory is the craft that exercises its influence through speech. Somebody might take you up, if he wanted to make a fuss in argument, and say, “So you’re saying that arithmetic is oratory, are you, Gorgias?” I’m sure, however, that you’re not saying that either arithmetic or geometry is oratory.

[451]
G
ORGIAS
: Yes, you’re quite correct, Socrates. You take my meaning rightly.

S
OCRATES
: Come on, then. Please complete your answer in the terms of my question. Since oratory is one of those crafts which mostly uses speech, and since there are also others of that sort, try to say
what
it is that oratory, which exercises its influence through speeches, is about. Imagine someone asking me about any of the crafts I mentioned just now, “Socrates, what [b] is the craft of arithmetic?” I’d tell him, just as you told me, that it’s one of those that exercise their influence by means of speech. And if he continued, “What are they crafts about?” I’d say that they’re about even and odd, however many of each there might be. If he then asked, “What is the craft you call computation?” I’d say that this one, too, is one of those that exercise their influence entirely by speech. And if he then continued, “What is it about?” I’d answer in the style of those who draw up motions in the Assembly that in other respects computation is like arithmetic—for it’s [c] about the same thing, even and odd—yet it differs from arithmetic insofar as computation examines the quantity of odd and even, both in relation to themselves and in relation to each other. And if someone asked about astronomy and I replied that it, too, exercises its influence by means of speech, then if he asked, “What are the speeches of astronomy about, Socrates?” I’d say that they’re about the motions of the stars, the sun and the moon, and their relative velocities.